Killmonger(WillTesla) vs. Joker(PercyTurner) .pdf
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Round 1 Will
Will Tesla What the fuk is good prep, today we have another classic debate going down
Who’s the better villain KillMonger or Coliniz...... I mean joker, let’s jump right into this shyt.
Will Tesla If y’all remember my ( is madara a good villain )debate I went over what makes a good villain.
How they impact their universe
How they develop the main character
I won’t spend too much time explaining these things again because fact is y’all heard it already and also let’s
be real, both kill monger and joker are great villains.
Instead for my premise I’m going to state what kill monger does better and why it makes him a better villain.
Will Tesla - motivation/background/cause - KillMonger is a disenfranchised, ghetto, African American who
grew up in Oakland housing, this automatically makes him relatable to black America out the gate, even
socially aware “Colonizers” will recognize his pain and understand his trauma.
He’s suffered from red lining, he lost his father, he was abandoned by his home nation and left to fend for
himself in amerikkka, it’s not hard to see why he wants to end white supremacy and free Africans from
bondage, his revenge and his anger is 10000% understandable and this is why the audience is able to connect
with him and feel his pain.
This had me often rooting for him to win
This had me questioning myself like, does he have a point ? Is he really wrong ? Is wakanda wrong ?
You see this complexity often had the viewers and Tchalla questioning themselves and everything they knew,
That’s the sign of a great fuking villain
The complexity KillMonger displays as a villain mixed with his tragic background offers something joker
doesn’t, and makes him a lot more interesting.
Hell joker doesn’t even have a background.
Will Tesla Universal/Main character impact - Joker was not able to break Batman but he certainly did impact
and change Harvey dent, I can’t deny joker of that achievement, however KillMonger was able to have a much
KillMonger challenged the way the wakandans behaved, and was able to turn the entire nation upside down,
his views changed Tchallas thought process and forced him to see the flaws of his own father a man he
idolized, Tchalla decided to no longer keep wakanda a secret as a result of the events, that alone had a impact
on the entire fuking developed world, he broke centuries of tradition with important questions, action, and
anger, the homie caused the most powerful nation on earth to have a civil war, let that shyt sink in.
The joker is good, don’t get me wrong, he has unpredictability and is clever despite his appearance, but when
we measure the resumes and impact, this shyt ain’t close.
Joker turned a city upside down
Kill monger turned the most advanced nation in the world upside down
KillMonger impacted Tchalla on a higher scale then joker was able to impact Batman
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Will Tesla Even down to the appearance and presentation
The way he dresses
The way he talks
Every time his hip hop trap theme plays threw the movie
Exist solely to remind you, millions of killmongers can potentially exist in America, be careful how you treat
the disenfranchised or it can comeback to haunt you in a way you never imagined.
What to expect from my opponent expect my opponent to downplay killmonger and over simplify his motivations
Expect him to just pass him off as a angry villain just looking for revenge, however my opponent will fail to
see that his anger with the world is one of the most interesting and important pieces to the movie, and
without a tragic past that’s relatable, kill monger would just be another typical marvel villain trying to take
over the world.
Closing argument/win condition
In conclusion kill monger is a better villain because
1. He’s more relatable
2. He’s more complex
3. his motive is more interesting
4. He has a stronger impact on the universe and main character
5. He has better development
#black-excellence #Time #wakandaforever
Round 1 Percy
Percy Turner Hello, Ladies and Gentlemen.. today we are here to discuss who is the better villain. The Joker
(as depicted in the Nolan’s The Dark Knight) or Killmonger (as depicted in the movie, Black Panther). I will be
representing Nolan’s Joker. During this time, I am going to present you with arguments that should prove that
Nolan’s Joker is leagues above Killmonger. My first point will be regarding the Joker’s entrance into the story
and the impact it had on Gotham I will argue that the Joker’s entrance was not only more dynamic but
possessed more substance. My second will be the Joker’s multifaceted plan and reasoning. I will argue that
the Joker’s reasoning and plan were deeper and than that of his opponent, and moreover that the
multifaceted aspect of this plan absolutely outshines anything Killmonger thought to attempt. These two
things alone should be enough. My last point, however will be the Joker’s legacy- the conclusion of the movie
and just what he was able to accomplish.
Percy Turner Having that said, lets begin. Keep in mind, this is limited only to NOLAN’s portrayal of the
Joker, meaning that prior incarnations do not apply. The “Clown Prince of Crime” does not exist here. This
character is deeper, more calculating and ultimately more dangerous. This is captured in his entrance to
Gotham. The Joker begins his reign of terror by robbing the Mob. Not scaring the people of Gotham. Not
terrorizing the streets and laughing manically. His entrance isn’t for the average citizen- it’s a declaration of
war on the lesser villains. He makes all the “bad guys” sit at attention. From this point, the Joker does what my
opponent is fabled to be able to do. He begins to destabilize. After robbing the most powerful men in Gotham.
The joker shows up to their “secret meeting” exposes himself as the culprit, kills a henchman and shrugs. This
begins to sow doubt into the minds of the villains- and so he goes in for the kill. He exposes their true
weakness: Batman. The Joker essentially takes over crime in Gotham with a very simple lie: “I will help you
kill the Batman.” This is the essence of part one of his plan. This is why the robbery takes place. It is all so the
Joker can walk in a room full of people who previously believed they were the baddest men on the block and
in one fell swoop silence them, and take the reigns. And this, is the overture, it isn’t his main plan. We’ll get to
that in round 2.
Percy Turner My opponent is going to try to explain to you how Killmonger’s villainy is on a global scale. He
is going to explain Killmonger’s aspirations as a villain outweigh the Joker because the Joker is fighting for
Gotham, and Killmonger has designs on governments around the globe. Killmonger’s so-called plan is meant
“deal with the world” but in all actuality, it falls very much short of that. The Joker is using Gotham, but his
villainy isn’t about square footage, it’s about something deeper. We will explain the facets of the Joker’s plan
in round 2, but Erik’s plan is simple: 1) take over Wakanda, 2) Use Wakanda’s weaponry to punish the world
and 3) Become the oppressor. This is both narrow-minded and not well thought out.
Percy Turner In terms of appearance, the joker’s character aims to do what Killmonger does BUT BETTER.
He isn’t painted white for no reason. He represents the forced smile and the mindless buffoonery of the
masses. Also, Killmonger is not actually the reason Wakanda questions itself. The arguement could be made
that T’Challa questions himself prior to Killmonger entering- and also all that hatred makes him a monster
himself oppressing the people he is “trying to protect”. The joker wants an end to all forms of “the plan” which
we’ll get into later. Killmonger wants nothing more than to be the white man.
Round 2 Will
Will Tesla Tsk tsk tsk
Man I must say when i pre rebuttal my opponents it’s make my rounds 2s that much harder because I’ve
already rebuttal most of what he had to say, but oh what the heck let’s give it a try
Will Tesla I’m glad you admire the jokers plans, I’m happy you find them interesting and cunning, as i stated
before the joker is clever and unpredictable, however having a plan isn’t the end all be of a good villain, plenty
of villains had plans in marvels cinematic universe a lot of those villains had better plans then kill monger ,
and yet this kid from Oakland is marvels first note worthy villain, why do you think that is ?
Will Tesla The answer is simple, they weren’t relatable
We couldn’t feel their pain, we couldn’t identify with their struggle
So if your plan is too criticize killmonger for not having the most clever plan in the world, congratulations you
just played yourself fuk a plan
What about emotional impact ?
What did the joker make you feel when you watched the dark knight ?
What did he make Bruce feel ?
Killmonger brought the audience in his shoes, killmonger showed Tchalla why you can’t just care about the
people in your own bubble
Will Tesla Stops debate to check heckler real quick
Yo GT Douglas do me a favor and stfu
You can say your piece when we done
Will Tesla You say Tchalla questions himself before Killmonger enters the movie but I’ll call bullshyt
Tchalla didn’t grow yet, maybe the thought was in the back of his mind but there was 0 sense of urgency he
was pretty much still xenophobic and debated on letting a man die vs keeping his utopia a secret
so no he did not grow just yet, killmongers appearance specifically served as the driver to his growth and he
even noted we have to change or more ppl like kill monger will surface
Will Tesla You say killmonger is a monster but let’s be real, what do you have to become to beat monsters ?
Are you saying he should accept inhumane treatment and turn around and deal with his oppressors
Are you saying he’s wrong for fighting back ?
Nigga please show me 1 revolution in history that happened without bloodshed, if killmonger was a monster
it was only because he didn’t have a choice
Will Tesla All this being said
Plan or no plan
These aren’t enough markers to make a great villain, they may have been entertaining for you but this isn’t
the end all b
Killmonger was developed better
Kill monger connected with us emotionally better
Kill monger impacted Tchalla better
Killmonger left behind a legacy as well
The closing credits we see Tchalla in Oakland helping other disenfranchised black children which is
something that kill mongered wanted .
So yeah plans are kool being clever is kool, but I need something I can feel and that white man fell short when
it came to that front
Joker didn’t give me or the audience anything to feel and that’s why he isn’t a better villain
Round 2 Percy
Percy Turner So I aimed at being nice but there are a few points I need to address before this goes any
further. Killmonger being more relatable than the joker is not based in his character at all. Killmonger has a
few, flat words about his “cause” that my opponentis basing his debate on. He is trying to ride on the current
situation and what Killmonger represents to him- not what the ACTUAL character does or has done in the
film. He is NOT marvel’s most relatable villain he was crafted for the opposite of this purpose- his actual
character’s purpose is destabilize- to destroy relationships- but ok. Secondly, in the actual film T’Challa
wrestles with the idea of abandoning old ways. It is this that prompts him to risk himself going after claw and
bringing the Agent back. So- that’s flat wrong.
So far we are still in the realm of ideology, and not taking about what Killmonger the character actually does.
Because in actuality he doesn’t do much. His motives are shallow his execution is rushed and poor and my
opponent knows it.
Now, Killmonger is not a revolutionary. He is a child trying to become his abusive father. He has a few choices
that a real villain would have been able to see. The fact that he destabilizes his own kingdom should be
evidence of this. He was working to destroy everything. Mindlessly because that’s what a child does in a
tantrum. He even breaks his own toys.
But fuck all this rebuttal. Let’s get to my round.
Percy Turner Round 2
We are now inside the Joker’s first layer. We know he, like Killmonger, aims at destabilization(and actually
destabilizes something). Here’s where it gets fun. So I was going to tell you the rest of the movie, expounding
point by point the Joker’s plan. I’ll spare you that. Watch the movie, it’s a masterpiece. Instead, I’ll just give
you the three major facets the Joker’s plan: first, the Joker’s plan for villains of Gotham, second, the Joker’s
plan for the people of Gotham, and finally the Joker’s plan for Batman. In terms of the Villains, Joker wants to
destroy villainy for money. This is evidenced by his dealing with the Mob and Gotham’s villains, taking “half”
of their money for himself, and then destroying “his half” of the money, and explaining that its “not about the
money, its about sending a message” (THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT LINES OF THIS ENTIRE
MOVIE). So what’s the message he wants to send? Is it, as Alfred states, that he just “wants to watch the world
burn?” He does say, directly after his statement “everything burns” right? So he’s just a crazy person—no.
“Everything burns” means nothing is sacred. There are no roles- no “bad guys” and no “good guys”. There are
no roles. And this, is what he was trying to illustrate in his next layer of the plan.
The people of Gotham are the targets for the Joker’s second most intricate and masterful plan. The plan for
the people of Gotham is to show them conceptions like law, justice, order are all in their head- and thus can be
bent or broken.(..Everything burns) Not only does he want them to realize this, but wants them to realize
they’ve always known this truth. People do what they want to do and pretend they follow a general consensus
of order. He just gives them tough choices. Give up Batman or people die. Kill a citizen or a hospital blows up.
Destroy criminals on a boat or die yourself. The point of this is making a choice. It is seeing life as a series of
choices, not arbitrary rules. The Joker knows that people are prone to making horrible choices- whether they
let Harvey die, or batman, or a citizen or a hospital die is irrelevant. The point is, that in each case, they
CHOOSE. Once they realize they wield the power of life and death in every choice… well then aren’t they all
vigilantes? We’ll talk about how this turns out in the third round.
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Percy Turner Lastly the Joker’s plan for Batman: the Joker isn’t ever trying to kill Batman, lets get this clear.
He’s recruiting him. The Joker sees what Batman refuses to. He says it in the jail scene: “don’t talk like one of
them, your not. You’re a freak… like me…” The Joker knows that batman exists because fundamentally
Batman understands life on the same level that Joker does. Batman knows that people hold to rules and
conventions that are actually feeble and easily destroyed. He, knowing this, chooses to try and uphold them,
sacrifices everything about himself to make these feeble things seem more real. Joker knows that one day,
Batman will realize no matter how strong he is, how noble he is, or how active he is, the nature of the people
of Gotham… no the nature of people in general won’t change. Also, one day Batman will realize that he,
himself is a person capable of making the same terrifying choices all people do. And once Batman realizes
this… he’ll start to laugh….
Percy Turner The joker aims to actually destabilize. To actually make people question their plans, because
deep down they know they are monsters. The joker plans on forcing people to look in the mirror and see him.
To see chaos. To see that the oppression their endorse the “plan” that is laid out for them is in their control
and they are far worse villains for forcing a smile and playing along with the bad joke. Joker is fighting for the
soul of Gotham- for the soul of people. What is it Killmonger is trying to do again? Blow shit up and become
what he claims to hate?
Round 3 Will
Will Tesla Ok welp it’s time to rap this up
I’m not surprised in the least bit by my opponents over simplifications of kill mongers character and tbh
neither should you.
We see this lame ass tone def shyt on Fox News enough, we don’t need to sit threw this in Prep
(He’s a thug) (he’s the real racist) (he’s becoming what he hates) (he’s just so angry) (his plan sucks he should
find a better way)
Well no shyt Sherlock that’s the main driver of his motivation
He’s angry that blacks are mistreated threwout the world
He’s angry that other blacks have the power to help but they sit by and instead choose self preservation
Are we really gonna sit here and pretend these aren’t good reasons to be angry ?
You sound outta touch but it’s kool you gone learn today
Will Tesla You claim kill monger doesn’t do much but wait let’s recap
He was able to manipulate claw wakandans enemy, gain his trust and Kill him, a person who has evaded
wakanda for years, he then drags the man body to wakanda and gains entry to the nation
Uses his birth right and challenges BP to the throne, he then proceeds to embarrass Tchalla in front of his ppl
and claim the throne
Tchalla lives but Killmonger influence still rest with half of the nation and this causes a civil war within the
Yeah sounds like a whole lot of nothing
Will Tesla The reality of the situation Percy is you haven’t told us why being clever and why these plans
make someone a good villain, you kind of just sat here today and summarized the dark knight movie and
claimed joker was a better planner and more calculated
That’s kool as I stated before but why should we care about that and that only ?
A good villain is someone who makes the audience question themselves
A good villain is someone who makes the hero question himself
A good villain is someone who we can relate to
A good villain is someone who’s driven, someone who brings change, someone who disrupts the status Quo,
someone who leaves a lasting impact on his universe
Killmonger has done all of these things and has done it better then The joker has
Will Tesla We saw killmonger develop then we saw him develop Tchalla
We saw him rule poor because he wasn’t meant to be the ruler, he was meant to develop Tchalla into a better
Killmonger appeal doesn’t lie in him executing his plan flawlessly, his appeal lies in him being the only 1
wanting to do anything about the situation
His appeal rest in him wanting change so bad he will stop at nothing to get it, even if it means killing his own
ppl on this continent
His appeal lies in him refusing to remain captive to, refusing to remain in bondage to the point where he
would rather be dead with his ancestors before he allows you to place him in any shackles
Will Tesla Killmonger appeal is he brought a different perspective to his universe
Wakandans are privileged, they have the best resources in the world, they are the richest nation in the world.
So how we pose to feel what Tchalla done spoke , when he ain’t ever have to struggle ain’t never been broke?
Ain’t even role threw ghetto ain’t ever been close!
Killmonger brings the struggle straight to the face of the privilege and that’s why he’s a great villain
Will Tesla So go ahead
Tell us more about plans
Finish your dark knight summary
At the end of the day that isn’t enough to make a great villain.
Killmonger is a tragic character who brought the pain of black America to the big screen and is the best villain
in the comic cinematic universe
Round 3 Percy
Percy Turner This whole “Fox news” shit is insulting. My opponent has yet to actually speak on what
happens in the movie. In the movie Killmonger is not at all developed well. Just because I believe that
oppression is wrong I’m not about to pretend Killmonger is agood villain. Why didn’t he do any actual
destabilizing? Why didn’t he try and sway the people? Clearly he had the floor and an ear why not learn
Wakanda’s ways and make the revolution there first? Why risk half Wakanda’s warriors rushing toward the
juvenile idea of hijaking weapons? Why incite civil war when he had the tools to actually make Wakanda look
at itself? The joker’s rhetoric and planning is the reason why we are here. If you didn’t look at yourself after
that movie, if you think Killmonger isn’t Joker for colored girls your silly. The joker makes you question
yourself, society, and the hero. But you didn’t do that. Ok. Maybe you didn’t see the movie or maybe you didnt
know what to look for.
For a debate there have been no quotes, no scenes, nothing to back anything my opponent has said. His entire
debate relies on implications that having a character like Killmonger creates. Nothing about the actual
character itself. This is little more than smoke and mirrors. The joker develops Batman, exposing to him that
vigilantism has two sides- the joker changes the landscape of the people, showing them that good and evil are
not archetypes they are choices. But Killmonger made a reclusive nation see a world of oppression (they
already knew about) with a few words and a lot of manipulation. But fuck all this. Let’s get to my actual
Percy Turner Third Round
This round is about legacy. Killmonger has none- but we’ll get to that. As for Nolan’s Joker…. He fucking won.
We’ve already talked about his goals, right? So quick points: He effectively cripples if not outright destroys the
mob- they are leaderless, damn near penniless, and toothless compared to the chaos the Joker has sown.
People are making choices that aren’t part of “the plan”. Killing “innocent people”, demanding Batman show
himself when two weeks prior people were trying to be like him.. his goal for the people was to expose just
how feeble their system was and how dependent they were upon it, so dependent in fact that they would do
anything to keep it in place- even become monsters themselves. He accomplishes this.
This leads to the final stage. The plan he has for Batman. Batman kills Harvey Dent in cold blood to save
Gordon. You can’t deny this. It was a CHOICE. (remember Joker’s words? “Killing is making a choice- you’ll
have to break your only rule in order to see the truth”) I believe that even Harvey’s coin flip (the 50/50
chance) landing on heads was the reveal that Gordon’s was never going to die. He was going to live but
Batman made a choice first. (People argue this, so I won’t claim it as fact, but boy is it convenient) Batman’s
choice to kill Harvey teaches the lesson the Joker tried to teach Gotham all movie long: rules are illusion.
Choice is reality. Chaos is absolute. Batman’s choice proves this beyond the shadow of a doubt. And Gordon
will cover it up, even though he knows, now the “plan” will be to blame batman for the murder, and even
though he just finished saving the city, as the Joker predicted- no mob, no Dent, they don’t need him.. they cast
him out “like a leper”. Ok, lets say I’m reaching here. Batman flaunts the law and truly embraces vigilantism
when he creates the monitoring device the pings all cellphones. He entrusts this to Lucius Fox, who knows
damn well this shouldn’t exist. This was batman “burning the forest down”- this was batman doing something
downright deviant and villainous, making a choice to do wrong for the sake of the plan. Did batman have to do
this? YES. It was the Joker’s plan. Legacy wise, Batman kills a man, the people of Gotham oust Batman
believing he is a murderer (because he is) and from the Joker’s perspective, the people of Gotham have all the
tools to begin to take the law into their own hands. The plan has been exposed. Mob is gone, Dent is dead,
now its just the people and their choices. The Joker won. Even if evil doesn’t rampantly spread, that wasn’t
the point. The point was “you’ve been a monster all along and I’ll prove it.” And he did.
Percy Turner In conclusion, Killmonger is a great character, and speaks to the heart of some issues alive
today in America. But we’re not talking about that. Killmonger represents rebellion, righteous fury, and
perhaps even, a little chaos. But we’re not talking about that. Killmonger is, at the end of the day, a one
dimensional villain (albeit well crafted and relevant) who seeks to force Wakanda’s hand. The effect of this,
ultimately was that T’Challa learned of the deeds that his father did to keep “the plan” intact. This led to him
and the nation of Wakanda coming out of the shadows. Killmonger is INDIRECTLY responsible for this: it can
be argued that T’Challa began to question prior to being usurped. So, Killmonger’s greatest feat wasn’t even
really his. He died without his dream being realized- and moreover, who is T’Challa standing in a room talking
to? The same countries and governments (some of them) who had been oppressing Africa and African
Americans offering them Wakanda’s allegiance. This of course is supposed to be counter balanced by him …
building .. a.. rec.. center… anyway. Killmonger failed. Utterly. I can’t see how this can be any clearer.
Kilmonger’s failed plans and ambitions may have been for the world, but he spends all his time and onscreen
villainy really screwing up Wakanda. Thanks for reading if you did! I hope to debate again sometime.